Occupy Wall Street - So what would you want?

[Dillon 1st MRB]

So, the whole Occupy Wall Street thing has gotten me thinking. But I'm insterested in if it has gotten other people thinking as well. If you are unfamiliar with the goings-on, here is a decent primer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

First, my political background - used to be highly conservative, I've become disenfranchised with the fiscal policies of conservatism, but agree with many of the principles if they are regulated. Now, I'm pretty odd. Sort of a quasi-libertarian with oddly socialist flavors with an underlying free-market appealing to me.

So yeah, I'm all fucked up.

If I were there, what would be my message?

- Ban micro-transactions - the practice of buying and selling stocks in microseconds to reap the 1/8th cent price difference of that stock. The catch? Stock prices are now triggered by computers - when someone buys a stock in a sufficient quantity, the price goes up. Meaning, by purchasing the stock, you trigger the price increase. This goes on thousands of times a day. To ban this - tax individual stock transactions.

- All political contributions may only be made by private citizens.

- All health care industries must become non-profit. Health is not something to get rich off of. Even Canada (no offense) has figured out how to make decent health care happen. How is it that I know 4 people who had to declare a medical bankruptcy?

- Tax all stock options/stock payments to individuals at the end of the year by the price that stock was worth when it was given.

[Pangilinan 1st MRB]

That's a stop-gap measure in my opinion. And frankly..you stated the speed of microtrading. You're trying to tax the fluctuations in the stock market that may or may not have an effect in the overall rise and fall of the various markets? Maybe there's a reason a trader may embark on this? I dunno, the latest labor statistics can send a market running or rallying for one. A microtrader can make money in such an environment. In the other hand, they can lose a crapload, all in as little as ten trades.

Okay, so, hypothetically, we've gotten the money.

How do you plan to address the other end of the equation? Yes there is another end. We TEA Partiers had long since seen it. (Well, no one understands that if they watch CNN, MSNBC, and -gasp- Fox.) Who knows where that money will go to? We've damn near brought pork to heel and given serious debate to the subject of the debt and deficit. But infuse the government with untold millions or billions in money?

Welp, we can push that into some unknown fund for a project not to be used until 10 years after, etc...

Now, I can agree with the political contributions. Let's also make sure those are also a limit on each person. Let's also make sure NONE come from Union Dues. And sure, the politicians may say the Republicans get all the corporate help? Both sides of the aisle gets em. So, simple. Limit per person. None from Unions. Both sides get corporate help.

As for healthcare, a full move to non-profit? Now I honestly think you expect doctors to work hard for no pay at all. Oh wait, they'll make pay, from a state or national pool. Germany has a similar system. Doctors are paid from a pool, and usually that pool is finished before the end of the month and many practices are closed until the next month. How about this? We still take care of you, when you're recovering, let's talk about a payment plan? Isn't that what insurance is for? If you're uninsured? Sure, give us an address, and talk to the accounting office on coming up with a payment plan.

The problem with a majority of #OWS is that the images sent home in news and in their own actions as well as the few times they were given interviews were that they were disjointed, unorganized, and rather rude and offensive. They have not organized in the way as, say, the TEA Party. Anyways, #OWS's best bet is to self-police themselves, and give me something more than 'Tax the Rich/Eat the Rich'. Sorry, and whoever tries to put #OWS with the TEA Party should probably take pictures of our rallies versus #Occupy.

If I don't make sense, I've been drinking.

[Maines]

I don't pay too much attention to it myself, But recently, we've talked about it in my English

class, where we're talking about arguing this and many other topics around the State of Maine

and around the country. I'm not sure what my take on it is yet, but who knows, maybe the

thousands around the world will change my mind at some point

[Dawson 1st MRB]

[Goodwin 1st MRB]

I know a few people who've done the medical bankruptcy thing - a true shame, because they're the nicest family you'd ever want to meet. But because of health conditions of their kids, and their moms health issues, they've had to file bankruptcy - not once, but twice (and almost a 3rd!).

I am not much for politics, but have been told I'm kind of socialist minded.

[Dawson 1st MRB]

1. Micro transactions are bullshit, but keep in mind that the purpose of stock trading is to defer risk. I'd like to see what the actual economic impact of these trades actually are. They could be helping to stabilize prices.

2. They tried this. It got thrown out in court. Corporations are considered a person.

3. The intimidate concern with healthcare is the fact that very soon and very quickly it's going to cost a ton. Maybe in the future these companies might turn a profit, but right now they are looking at forecasts and a constantly changing political environment. Under those circumstances, most companies would pull bullshit too. I think it can be simply put that any system would be better than one where we rely on the employer to provide health insurance. It creates a model where everyone is spending someone elses money.

4. Just as long as you tax the shit out of hedge funds I don't care.

[Tragedy]

I'm all for this movement it is happening all over the world even in my little canadian city

Here is a great vid i found that will inspire you hopefully to stand up for our human rights.

[I have no arms BAR]

Meh I would just want all the stinky hippies off my property.

[Pangilinan 1st MRB]

In the words of a a Democratic Senator. "It's happening in the US and in over 1000 countries around the world."

I'm gonna let that sink in. And frankly, I already know my stance on this.

"Stop whining and organize. Oh wait you can't."

[Elder]

Meh I would just want all the stinky hippies off my property.

Agreed. These people are fucking retards. If you want a fucking job, go get one. Don't bitch and whine till you "earn" one... jesus fucking christ these people piss me the fuck off.

Rant ended.

[Zahl 1st MRB]

Glad you brought up that topic Elder. In fact theres a reason there is so much unemployment its not because people dont want to get a job. It is simply the taste of the Free Market aka Capitalism. The downside of capitalism especially in the US is that people get richer and people get poorer. These people have very good arguements for why the US and the world economy is going downhill atm.

[I have no arms BAR]

One big problem is that it seems people just want jobs handed to them though. It takes work to get work. Many people complaining just want life handed to them without effort. Not all of them, but many.

[Pangilinan 1st MRB]

And there are also other effects as well. Not just 'Free Markets' are to blame here. (Which is an oft overused term that does little justice to macro- and micro-economic policies/trends/theories)

Over-regulation and in some countries, regulatory practices not helpful to businesses mean these business will look elsewhere to find work. The expansion of a welfare/social safety net to the point it becomes rather easy to game the system also has a hand in it. Mind you, I've already seen this problem addressed before and that particular movement downgraded by the national media, but #OWS is drawing attention to itself in rather uncomfortable ways. It is starting to be eerily similar to the old counter-culture movement. And I honestly can't take seriously a movement which has the full backing of both the American Communist Party and the American Nazi Party. Let alone various other pro-big government/socialistic groups. #OWS does not realize that it is not the 'rich' that's purely at fault.

It is the crony capitalism between the 'rich' and it's connections in the bureaucracy and politicians. Studied this in Japan under the Iron Triangle system (Bureaucracy <-> LDP <-> kereitsu), and Eisenhower may had warned against the military-industrial complex, but it has spread to other fields/agencies/industries besides the military.

Besides, the term 'rich' is completely ambiguous. You can have politicians twist numbers up down and sideways and the news agencies will merely say 'rich' or 'high earners'. By last recollection, some legislation proposing an increase in taxes listed those individuals with a $200,000/couples with a $250,000 yearly income as rich. The tax bracket can be lowered in order to increase the cash flow. Which will go into the government and while sure, a good or service that is essential to government (police/fire/medical/SocialSec) is funded, there is greater risk of an entrenched bureaucracy coddled with politicians and corporations of a specific interest group stifling actual market competition.

An increase of deductions from pay, increase of regulation, and right now, a business unfriendly atmosphere can have jobs be nonexistent as employers, unwilling or unable to operate a business and hire, will close hiring or only hire within the company (horizontal or inter-department hiring is what I mean).

But meh, I'm writing this with nary 4 hours of sleep and lots of caffeine, with a slim grasp of economic policy. I only affirm my conviction on my judgement of the group from my own political convictions AND knowledge. I'd be a sorry soul if I didn't even glean a rudimentary knowledge of bureaucracy and politics in my 4 years of university and aught to destroy my diploma if that was the case.

Feel free to disagree, anyone who does can prove I'm barking up the wrong tree. It's just I see this as analogous (although in a less extreme form) to various crony capitalistic nations in East Asia, and a budding resemblance to the aforementioned Iron Triangle.

One big problem is that it seems people just want jobs handed to them though. It takes work to get work. Many people complaining just want life handed to them without effort. Not all of them, but many.

Unfortnately, this is how a good majority of them look like on TV, in interviews, and in person.

TANSTAAFL would be the acronym I'd use if I wanna go there and troll them. But I'm a bit cowardly. XD;;

Also to clarify, my forte is INTERNATIONAL Politics. Not Domestic or Economic Policy/Politics. But I draw from economic policies of other nations and of this nation (due to global interdependence). And the fact in order to gain the BA in my department, you had to take courses from other concentrations if you chose a concentration, so I took a few bureaucracy-aligned/public administration courses and also took political economy as a nice rounder. Minored in History (spec. East Asia post-1945)

[Morton]

Agreed. These people are fucking retards. If you want a fucking job, go get one. Don't bitch and whine till you "earn" one... jesus fucking christ these people piss me the fuck off.

Rant ended.

You know what man, fuck you too. I've been with out a job for six months now. I've fucking applied everywhere. Even the goddamn mcdonalds isnt fucking hiring. McDonalds. ISN'T. HIRING. It isn't so simple as "go get one." Its not our fault (the 99%) that the economy is in recession. You don't see us with a fucking millions annually salary just to sit on our ass. You dont see us with a goddamn golden parachute. People like you piss me off. Just because they may look like hippies doesn't mean they are fucking retards. And if you got your head out of your ass, you'd realize its not "lazy liberals" its Americans from all walks of life that are protesting. And just to show howmuch of an asshat you are, only 15% of the protestors are unemployed. Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...2965745362.html which is from the Wall street journal. The people who are being protested against. And was a slander piece. Sources:

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/19...veys-protester/

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/cult...-democrats-who-

So next time mate. Think out what your going to say, rather then what the media tells you to say.

As for my political stance I'm actually a Right leaning Moderate.

One big problem is that it seems people just want jobs handed to them though. It takes work to get work. Many people complaining just want life handed to them without effort. Not all of them, but many.

See the part where only 15% are unemployed and get back to me.

Edit: If you want to have a nice rational discussion I'm down. If you want to be belligerent like Elder, I can be belligerent right back. I prefer to be nice, so if you keep it nice, ill keep it nice.

[Elder]

You know what man, fuck you too. I've been with out a job for six months now. I've fucking applied everywhere. Even the goddamn mcdonalds isnt fucking hiring. McDonalds. ISN'T. HIRING. It isn't so simple as "go get one." Its not our fault (the 99%) that the economy is in recession. You don't see us with a fucking millions annually salary just to sit on our ass. You dont see us with a goddamn golden parachute. People like you piss me off. Just because they may look like hippies doesn't mean they are fucking retards. And if you got your head out of your ass, you'd realize its not "lazy liberals" its Americans from all walks of life that are protesting. And just to show howmuch of an asshat you are, only 15% of the protestors are unemployed. Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...2965745362.html which is from the Wall street journal. The people who are being protested against. And was a slander piece. Sources:

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/19...veys-protester/

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/cult...-democrats-who-

So next time mate. Think out what your going to say, rather then what the media tells you to say.

As for my political stance I'm actually a Right leaning Moderate.

See the part where only 15% are unemployed and get back to me.

Edit: If you want to have a nice rational discussion I'm down. If you want to be belligerent like Elder, I can be belligerent right back. I prefer to be nice, so if you keep it nice, ill keep it nice.

Did you also notice that it is costing (and this is from the boston one) the city (and police force for that matter, it's all from the tax-payer's wallet) this?:

"In total, Boston police officers have logged a total of 3056 overtime hours since they began covering the protests on October 1.

The overall cost of that overtime has been put at $146,189.55."

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/14/poli...boston-at-146k/

It also said that it could get higher to 2mill:

Murphy said the department could spend as much as $2 million this month alone on security during the protests."

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/14/poli...boston-at-146k/

So not only is it a "protest" It is costing the city extra money, plus making it so that the officers have to do extra over time, about 3,056 hours (mind you, this article was done on the 14th of october, so it has bound to gone up since then.

Just saying.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Elder

[Morton]

The first article you posted (which is the same as the first, Was that a typo?) "It wasn’t immediately clear how Murphy came up with the $2 million estimate." And stated a 150000 cost. So double it and your sitting at around 300000 a month in overtime. However I'd rather have to pay that now, then continue with our corrupt ceo's and bankers and have this nation crumble into another great depression. Which mind you will only hurt the 99%. The top 1% is still going to be rich no matter what, unless we do something about it.

[I have no arms BAR]

My gripe isn't necessarily with the main focus behind the protests (which would be wall street greed and government cronyism in our financial system, corruption, etc.) but the manner in which they're being carried out. Number one, you just can't camp out day and night in places that weren't meant for it. The sanitary problems alone make this not a good idea. Number two, the protests are getting hijacked by a bunch of wackadoo nutjobs and the focus is getting taken away from where it should be, which is government and financial corruption.

[Pangilinan 1st MRB]

Morton:

So the top 1% has now been culled. They are not rich anymore. They, like the rest of us, now live in 'equal' terms. How did that happen? Do you mean to tax the rich to the point they lose their title of rich? What happens the rich become middle class. Who will you tax then?

Why the answer of course, is the new 'rich'. In this hypothetical example, what was once the middle class. They have the money now. Hard working, honest folk, who are doctors, lawyers, middle or corporate management THAT AREN'T the top dog. Small business owners, entrepreneurs, and potential startups.

And the tax on the rich is either kept in place or adjusted.

What then? Where will that revenue stream come from? You've got to keep it up right?

You don't have to answer. I'm just pushing it out there. This is my question to #OWS.

"You've gotten the rich. What now? What's your plan? Do you have a way to fix this besides your nifty 'xxxxx the rich' soundbyte?"

[Morton]

Cull the rich as in,

1, Dont give them huge ass tax cuts.

2. Dont allow ceos to run a company into the ground then leave right before the collapse and get a golden parachute.

3. Remove tax shelters.

4. Make health care strictly non-profit.

5. End corneism with politicians and big business.

At least my views on it.

[Pangilinan 1st MRB]

1) Depending on the state, they pay nearly all the taxes. Federal, State, and Municipial.

2) This is just plain common sense, and easily stopped by the board and a good company charter. There will be some that get through, but don't lump em all together. For all you know, I could be a CEO of a successful company that I built from scratch and I'm taking home pay that's just slightly more than those below me.

3) Explain this more in detail.

4) You do know a good majority of hospitals ARE non-profit right? And the fact that if they refuse treatment their board and management come under fire for it?

The healthcare law should've been a restructuring of the regulatory commission overseeing the insurance companies and the companies themselves., not an enlargement.

5) That my friend, is to remove the entrenchment of career politicians and bureaucrats. Stop voting in the incumbent who has overstayed his position. Democrats, Republicans, Independent. Doesn't matter.

[Pangilinan 1st MRB]

*revives*

You know, there's a reason I'm a TEA Partier and not a #OWS-er. We abide by the laws and work within the system to bring about change. Look what happened. We established our own branches in every town, city, county, and what have you. Our goals are all the same but it's a completely decentralized organization that allows in all walks of life.

Now, there was the Glenn Beck rallies and whatnot. Sure, that's a major rally. But it was an instance of a Conservative celebrity footing the bill for a national rally. Letters and emails were sent to the various TEA Party groups saying we want to make a big rally, bring your members, your neighbors, we'll have a day at the Mall where you get to see Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, we wave our flags around, and the we go back home, focusing on local elections, state elections, and start attacking the incumbents who brought us to this junction.

While #OWS does this:

Milk Street Cafe Owner Sacks 21 Employees As Consequence Of Occupy Wall Street Demonstration

There's demonstrating, and then there's being parasites. I understand what #OWS wants...to a point. And the movement has allowed itself to be coopted by extremists on both left and right. And pretty soon it'll just be another get out the vote initiative by the DNC and Obama's reelection campaign.

[Dillon 1st MRB]

1) Depending on the state, they pay nearly all the taxes. Federal, State, and Municipial.

I'd just like for them to pay the same amount I do. And the issue is that the super rich get paid in stock rather than salary. Stock isn't taxed. They then get loans on it, sell the stock when it has dropped a bit in price, and then write it off as a "loss" and never pay taxes on it. Ever. Want to know how much I've been paid in company stock? Zero. My wife and I made a combined $42k 4 years ago. We owed $1,200 in tax. And this was after all of my our withholding and health care. Oh, and health care? It was 20% of our income. Gross inequity.

2) This is just plain common sense, and easily stopped by the board and a good company charter. There will be some that get through, but don't lump em all together. For all you know, I could be a CEO of a successful company that I built from scratch and I'm taking home pay that's just slightly more than those below me.

Until you realize that CEO's nominates members of the board for the shareholders to rubber stamp. Also, those board members draw checks for being Board members... for doing nothing. Its thoroughly corrupt.

3) Explain this more in detail.

Lots of overseas places, "investments," as well as government funded tax relief. The biggest scanadal was the plethora of tax relief that has been in place since the 1950's for oil companies. They really don't need it, what with their massive profits.

4) You do know a good majority of hospitals ARE non-profit right? And the fact that if they refuse treatment their board and management come under fire for it?

And they then raise prices on certain insurance companies to cover the uninsured. Did you know there are different prices for the same procedure depending on your insurance coverage? Not okay.

5) That my friend, is to remove the entrenchment of career politicians and bureaucrats. Stop voting in the incumbent who has overstayed his position. Democrats, Republicans, Independent. Doesn't matter.

I was very pro-term limits in the 1990's. It hasn't changed a damn thing. The major issue is that no one will take the tough steps because they can't hurt their donor base. Donor base = re-election. It takes money to fund a campaign and usually, the most money spent wins, regardless of the political message.

[Pangilinan 1st MRB]

1) Then they will. And they get taxed more then. So what happens to that money? I can't honestly answer this because I'm not making the money you are and unable to realistically see it. A point off for me but sure.

2) So every single CEO, Board of Directors, and upper level management is corrupt? From the business that hasn't even reached regional dominance, let alone local dominance (a few stores here and there) to companies like General Electric and the like? Are you sure you're talking about those who really abuse this? I think the issue with this view is that you also have something against people who push themselves into the red for years before turning a profit. I can agree that bigger companies will and can abuse their power and profits, but to label EVERY CEO and Board as such is kinda wrong to me. It's like saying all conservatives are white, crotchety old fellas with hands in every businessman's pockets and wishing to kick all the blacks back to Africa and Mexicans to Mexico. (If that were the case then what am I?)

3) Detail. But let's see on the oil companies then. Transportation, refining, shipment, research and development, government fees. These are also going to have to be paid by these profits. Last I heard, barely a dollar is profit for companies, the rest goes to other fees ranging from transporting costs to environmental impact fees.

4) And the implementation of the Healthcare law means we have to cover the uninsured, right? This is going to make it even more unfair as it'll benefit not only the regulatory committees in charge, but insurance companies who are contracted with the Government to handle these people. What should've been done was a streamlining and reevaluation of the healthcare law to make it possible for those uninsured to be able to come up with a way to pay their procedures while also equalizing the playing field and handling the abuses. But no, it was just a massive bureaucracy dump.

5) I am and still a fan of term limits. Particularly for the US Senate and House. No longer than 12 years in the House and 20 in the Senate. The problem with the US political system is that it's easy for money to be involved. Those with connections and money often get elected, and while you may never know how a person performs under stress or in the job of the US Congress, we've gotten people who has gotten in by family name and money (Teddy Kennedy for one) or with very good connections and media bias (our current President).

I'd like to institute Germany's election laws in the US. No stupid 4 year long reelection campaign, all money coming from a public pool, etc... But of course, no one would agree to that.

That addressed, I'd want for these #Occupy idiots to go home already. Kudos to the Chicago Board of Trade for their Leaflet attack. As Professor Reynolds had said:

As I wrote back in 2010, "Rallies without follow-through are just rallies. And the Tea Party movement is now following through with the grunt work of politics: Organizing precincts, waging primary battles, registering voters, and compiling mailing lists."

Rallies don't win elections. Neither do drum circles. Organizing does. Let Occupiers and Tea Partiers alike take note.

-Glenn Reynolds (the Instapundit), Washington Examiner, 11/5/2011 Article

This movement to me has become a months long blemish and a distortion of the American version of democracy. Well, it always has been. It's a Woodstock wannabe, back in the days when there were real greivances with the Government. If there was one thing I can admire the 1960s and 70s hippies and whatnot for, is that they understood that their mob needed to vote their solutions in. The Occupy folks have not grasped that, and every day they don't, my movement gets closer to putting either a Black man who is successful in turning ailing business around into the White House or (at the very least) a Northeast Establishment RINO. We did it last year, we'll do it again hopefully in Virginia tomorrow, and hopefully once more next year.

[Gooderham 1st MRB]

The whole system is fucked. You need money to win an election and when you do, you are obligated to scratch the backs of the people who helped put you there. CEO's are not all corrupt. Some are, I'm sure, genuinely good people. The issue is that the "99%" is stuck doing all the heavy lifting while the elite make money off of them.

I support the Occupy Protesters, provided they are not being complete idiots. A true protester has a plan of action, as well as the support of the people they represent; if they lose it, they become a disturbance. One fundamental right of a democracy is to be allowed to congregate in opposition of injustice. When we begin to trim this right "we the people" have nothing left, subjugated to part of the proletariate.

I am not an economist, and will not pretend to have the answers but something must change. Thousands of hard working people are being left in the dust for the advantage of few.

[Englebretson 1st MRB]

All I have to say is "You Dig!"