Palestine and the UN

[Logue 1st MRB]

So does anyone else find it iffy that Palestine joining the UN as a non-member observer state is described by the Israeli foreign ministry as "crossing a red line that will require the harshest Israeli response". (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391)

Greenlighting 3000 new settlement homes in east Jerusalem in response doesn't seem very constructive.

[Takel 1st MRB]

Greenlighting 3000 new settlement homes in east Jerusalem in response doesn't seem very constructive.

I see what you did there.

In all seriousness though, i think it's great that they've gotten some international recognition after all this time. Israel aren't really the best people to be listening to in regards to affairs at the west bank (or gaza, but hamas are not exactly great there either)

Israeli Authorities are not particularly keen on letting them live there anyway, if they were fine with it, then there wouldn't be a great big wall around the area

[Mamora BAR]

Israel just wants to be left alone. Plain and simple and people keep fucking with them and theres going to come a time where Israel is going to take the kiddy gloves off. I mean who would just sit there while another country lobs mortars into their neighborhood and bombs schools? Would be like if Mexico started launching mortars into Texas then a day later we'd be like...whats Mexico? lol Dont put up with other peoples shit. Israel keeps getting provoked and sooner or later someones going to regret it. I dont blame them for being against it. You keep getting attacked left and right over decades and you just learn to become cynical and devote most of your funds to Military defense....man i love their tanks.

[Takel 1st MRB]

Israel just wants to be left alone. Plain and simple and people keep fucking with them and theres going to come a time where Israel is going to take the kiddy gloves off. I mean who would just sit there while another country lobs mortars into their neighborhood and bombs schools? Would be like if Mexico started launching mortars into Texas then a day later we'd be like...whats Mexico? lol Dont put up with other peoples shit. Israel keeps getting provoked and sooner or later someones going to regret it. I dont blame them for being against it. You keep getting attacked left and right over decades and you just learn to become cynical and devote most of your funds to Military defense....man i love their tanks.

the problem is that they can't see it from the standpoint of the palestinians. Parts of Mandatory Palestine were given to Jewish/Zionist settlers at the end of WW2. From the palestinian side, they've been invaded and occupied for the last 70 years or so, of course they're going to attack their invaders. basically, it is colonialist racism in it's most recent evolution. a bunch of land is given to people that haven't lived there by people that didn't own the area in the first place all without the consent of the people that have been living in that area for ages

[Captain Giraffe BAR]

I've seen so many people saying stuff like "Israel's not going to take their shit anymore," and I don't understand why they think they have been taking that shit. Here are some numbers, for perspective, from B'tselem and the Israeli Foreign ministry.

Palestinian Fatalities____________________________Israeli Fatalities

2011____188__________________________________________11

2010____81___________________________________________8

2009____1034_________________________________________9

2008____887__________________________________________35

Half the time, some idiot militant fires an rpg from Gaza that gets caught by the Iron Dome (funded largely by the US) and Israel responds with "targeted" airstrikes that level blocks in Gaza indiscriminately killing Palestinians. Also Israel abandons the peace process every time some idiot fires a rocket-- but they say they it's the Palestinians.

[Marsden 1st MRB]

While I do believe that Isreal has the right to the land that has been taken from the Israli people over the ages the expansion beyond the UN provisioned lands we have seen over the last 70 years does warrant a bit of anger from the local populace. As for the Palestinians being fully to blame thats dumb, the Israeli overnment needs to seriously commit to peace talks before Palestine will have to account for their more extremist sects as those extremists are the minority. Bombing civilians is not something that is acceptable and I believe the Israeli gavernment should be held accountable for every death and pay full restitution to the innocent families they reguarly break up and destroy their homes and livelihoods, plain and simple. You want peace and equality with your neighboring states, how about giving some semblance of a peaceful and equal level show of respect.

[Griswold]

equal level show of respect.

Kinda hard to do when you live in the area that has been fought over by numerous religions, Israel is holy to more then just the Jewish populace that live there and this isn't the first time that the place has been bathed in blood.

Lets not forget the Crusades where Christians and Muslims fought over the same territory for over 100+ years before any kind of peace existed there.

Half the time, some idiot militant fires an rpg from Gaza that gets caught by the Iron Dome.

This is incorrect, the Iron Dome defense system currently in use by the Israelis is only built to shot down missiles, it is completely ineffective against shoulder fired weaponry like the R.P.G. It is correct the it was largely funded by the US but it only shoots down missiles fired from Gaza and other areas around Israel.

[Mamora BAR]

Respect wont be given to those who fire first When your going about your business wanting to be left alone and someone fires an rpg at your house im sure you wont be standing there saying hmmm think ill go over there and talk to that person and see if i can get peace. Israel already has very few people. 1 of their citizens is like a million of ours. They've always been provoked and messed with and the moment they get up to defend themselves their called war mongers and dont believe in peace. I mean hell when you have Egypt and Syria constantly fucking with you for decades along with a Palestinian regime shooting rpgs at your people how can peace ever be bargained for? Why dont they apologize to the Israelis for killing their people? This aint a one way street.

Its simple. Leave Israel alone. Keep poking them and they will retaliate and honestly so far theyve been barely reacting. What occurred over the past few weeks was childs play. They know if they pounded Gaza to the ground they would be ridiculed for it. Course there are innocent people. Innocent people exist in both countries but when one keeps messing with the other i mean cmon.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Mamora BAR

[Englebretson 1st MRB]

It wont help to solve anything. That part of the world has been fighting since the dawn of time.

[Mamora BAR]

It has...and what scares me at times is if any of those other countries gets enough balls to corner Israel, Israel wont be afraid to nuke them back to the stonage if they feel threatened.

[Peaker]

Respect wont be given to those who fire first When your going about your business wanting to be left alone and someone fires an rpg at your house im sure you wont be standing there saying hmmm think ill go over there and talk to that person and see if i can get peace. Israel already has very few people. 1 of their citizens is like a million of ours. They've always been provoked and messed with and the moment they get up to defend themselves their called war mongers and dont believe in peace. I mean hell when you have Egypt and Syria constantly fucking with you for decades along with a Palestinian regime shooting rpgs at your people how can peace ever be bargained for? Why dont they apologize to the Israelis for killing their people? This aint a one way street.

Its simple. Leave Israel alone. Keep poking them and they will retaliate and honestly so far theyve been barely reacting. What occurred over the past few weeks was childs play. They know if they pounded Gaza to the ground they would be ridiculed for it. Course there are innocent people. Innocent people exist in both countries but when one keeps messing with the other i mean cmon.

"Leave Israel alone"? Dude, they're blockading Gaza and preventing humanitarian shipments to get through, while bombing the place with Jets while the Palestinians have shitty rockets. Israel's leadership is guilty of many war crimes and acts that would make some nazis blush. Despite the UN resolutions against further settlements of the Palestinian lands, they keep funding Israeli construction projects (Notice how I don't use the word jew?).

That said, many would think i'm an anti-zionist, i'm not. I believe in the two states solution, and the Palestinians themselves have many dirty dirty acts on their record from the Arab War and before, when Israel wasn't yet a country.

I just don't believe in calling apples oranges. What Israel is doing to Palestine right now is downright shitty and illegal, and is mostly for electoral purposes, as "strong" Israeli politicians gain popularity in the population of Israel by adopting a tough stance. Israel has the right to defensible frontiers, and Palestinians have the right to be treated like bloody human beings, not like cattle herded into a pen and left to die. How can you justify the indiscriminate bombing of the most densely populated area of the world, or close to? It's like if everytime an Al-Quaeda bomber attacked a US target, they launched F-35s and bombed Kabul.

That said, extreme Palestinian politicians need to stop dreaming that Israel will disappear or be eradicated, Egypt is no longer on that boat, neither is Syria in any shape and Jordan has basically been walking hand in hand with Israel for a while. The old Arab alliance is gone, and was defeated not once, but twice, in wars. Israel has gained the right to the Golan and water rights on the West bank, as well as most of the central and coastal territory (excluding Gaza).

Also, Israel will never use nukes unless they were really back to the wall, and that won't happen. The Israeli army is one of the best in the world, and in terms of innovation, i'd say they're evolving at a faster rate than the US when it comes to tactics and flexibility. If they were able to defeat 4 Arab powers in 67, I wouldn't worry for them now. Besides, the US would stop them from using nukes or would intervene directly in the region to prevent it.

[Captain Giraffe BAR]

I hear that argument so often, "How can they not bomb the shit out of Gaza when they're always shooting rockets at their houses and Israelis have to live in constant fear of hearing those alarms warning about incoming missiles." The Palestinians don't even get alarms. What's the endgame? Will the airstrikes stop once there's nobody left to kill in Gaza? And talk about self defense, in the last string of bombings that started two weeks ago the Israelis were the aggressors- THEY'RE THE ONES STARTING IT.

This is one subject where there is a decidedly vocal group that refuses to see any sort of logic, and will cling to its argument no matter how irrational and ridiculous it might be.

[Mamora BAR]

Nearly everyones opinion or argument that puts down anothers will be seen as ridiculous and unlogical cause of course not everyone is going to agree on everything. The only solution is to accept the fact that there will be people that wont agree with you on many things. To accuse someone of not using logic will only be counterproductive due to the other party most likely assuming the samething which leads to pointless semantics. The only way to construct a good sound solid clear argument based on logic and facts that cannot be toppled would be if we were over there taking it all in with our own eyes and research. We merely construct our arguments and opinions based on media fabrication and interpretations of others.

Accept the fact that others will disagree with you, but claiming that they dont use logic in regards to their argument wont be a constructive tolerant way of dealing with it.

And peaker the reason they blockaded and prevented ships from entering Gaza was that they uncovered weapons on a ship that were supposedly humanitarian aid and went in to intercept the vessel, which of course the people on board fired upon them and discovered there were weapons on board. According to of course news sources. Israel claims Iran keeps shipping arms through such vessels disguised as humanitarian aide.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Mamora BAR

[Captain Giraffe BAR]

Nearly everyones opinion or argument that puts down anothers will be seen as ridiculous and unlogical cause of course not everyone is going to agree on everything. The only solution is to accept the fact that there will be people that wont agree with you on many things. To accuse someone of not using logic will only be counterproductive due to the other party most likely assuming the samething which leads to pointless semantics. The only way to construct a good sound solid clear argument based on logic and facts that cannot be toppled would be if we were over there taking it all in with our own eyes and research. We merely construct our arguments and opinions based on media fabrication and interpretations of others.

Accept the fact that others will disagree with you, but claiming that they dont use logic in regards to their argument wont be a constructive tolerant way of dealing with it. I don't like pissing people off, and I like being friends with people - but I've also extensively followed this conflict and it bothers me when people misconstrue the situation.

Alright dude, so far in this argument I've provided facts and figures and you've provided unsubstantiated opinions. I'm not trying to offend you, I don't know you, and I don't want you to take this personally- but that always happens with this particular subject.

And peaker the reason they blockaded and prevented ships from entering Gaza was that they uncovered weapons on a ship that were supposedly humanitarian aid and went in to intercept the vessel, which of course the people on board fired upon them and discovered there were weapons on board. According to of course news sources. Israel claims Iran keeps shipping arms through such vessels disguised as humanitarian aide.

So in the interest of facts, here are some facts about the Gaza freedom flotilla raid that might clarify things for you. No weapons were found on any of the ships, other than the handful of pipes and knives used by activists to combat the IDF commandos who assaulted their ships in international waters. There's a link to a report that details how the vessels were all inspected before entering international waters, how no weapons were found then, and how the IDF attacked the ships anyway. After the IDF boarded ONE of the ships A HANDFUL of activists on that ship retaliated and 10 of them were killed, and dozens more wounded. 12 IDF commandos sustained minor injuries and one was seriously injured. How do you respond, logically, to those facts? Do you still argue that the IDF commandos were in the right, even though Israel was universally condemned (with the exception of the USA) for the raid?

[Mamora BAR]

Hence why i will not continue this argument because all you seem to be doing is saying your wrong your wrong im right right. You say you dont want to offend, but when your calling peoples arguments ridiculous and labeling their arguments as unlogical and "unsubstantiated opinions" it gets tiring. I've stated how i feel and how i interpret the situation through my own research. I'm not gonna claim everything i say is fact and truth and i certainly wont put down others for their own arguments that rival my own.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Mamora BAR

[Captain Giraffe BAR]

Hence why i will not continue this argument because all you seem to be doing is saying your wrong your wrong im right right. You say you dont want to offend, but when your calling peoples arguments ridiculous and labeling their arguments as unlogical and "unsubstantiated opinions" it gets tiring. I've stated how i feel and how i interpret the situation through my own research. I'm not gonna claim everything i say is fact and truth and i certainly wont put down others for their own arguments that rival my own.

That's one way to respond I guess.