U.S. Government Shutdown

[Armstrong 1st MRB]

At the time of this post, the U.S. Government will have been shutdown except in the arms of Army, Air Traffic Control, Stock Exchange, and Border Control and a few minor other arms for a total of 47 hours.

In posting this, I'm hoping to have a fairly civil discussion about why this is going on, and what we can hope would be the best results, or worst depending on your preference. Being a Canadian, I perhaps shouldn't feel overly attached to American Politics, but this event will likely have repercussions on us if it goes on for a while.

For those of you who haven't been paying attention, the Tea Party and Republican Party who control the majority in the U.S. Senate basically called for a shutdown of all non-essential arms of the government until they and the Democrats can reach a satisfying compromise over their health care plan, or Obamacare as it is called. Why is this such a big deal? Well, last I heard the previous time this occured was several decades ago and lasted for 25 days though I cannot recall what it was about specifically. Not only that, but the U.S. Government's Debt ceiling is going to hit in 17 days, which means that unless this gets resolved and they deal with that before those 17 days are up, then the U.S. Government will have to default on its debts since it will have no money. None of the parties want that, so my guess is that this is just going to become a big game of chicken where we'll see which party will give in first.

Here is my problem though, and maybe I'm just being Canadian and like Public Health Care systems overly too much, but what the heck were the Republicans thinking? Every hour that the government is shut down is costing them about 67 million dollars, multiply that by what we already have accumulated around 3,149,000 dollars in lost money. They say that they're(the Republicans) opposed to Obamacare in both Principle and Practise; is that supposed to mean they don't agree with the idea of giving people the ABILITY to have ACCESS to some form of Public Health Care regardless of how much money they make? That its joe schmoe's own fault if he has a respiratory illness which stops him from working, threatens his life, and cannot afford medicine for it? I understand that the Republican main argument that they cannot afford to sustain a public Health Care system right now, but come on, they aren't helping the situation or their argument by costing the government this much money, and still getting a nice fat paycheck (because even though Government is shutdown, the Senate, Congress, and White House are still being paid).

Even members of their own party didn't agree with the idea of shutting the government down, it was only the Tea Party's sudden revelation of this tactic that the majority decided to get behind it, or at least that is my understanding of it. The Tea Party are willing to drag the government and the whole country into financial collapse over a Health Care bill which is already technically law? I don't know, I'd like to hear what you guys think on the subject, but at the moment I'm having trouble understanding why the opposition was so desperate to stop Obama and the Democrats from finalizing the bill that they resorted to this.

[Ultranator BAR]

At the time of this post, the U.S. Government will have been shutdown except in the arms of Army, Air Traffic Control, Stock Exchange, and Border Control and a few minor other arms for a total of 47 hours.

In posting this, I'm hoping to have a fairly civil discussion about why this is going on, and what we can hope would be the best results, or worst depending on your preference. Being a Canadian, I perhaps shouldn't feel overly attached to American Politics, but this event will likely have repercussions on us if it goes on for a while.

For those of you who haven't been paying attention, the Tea Party and Republican Party who control the majority in the U.S. Senate basically called for a shutdown of all non-essential arms of the government until they and the Democrats can reach a satisfying compromise over their health care plan, or Obamacare as it is called. Why is this such a big deal? Well, last I heard the previous time this occured was several decades ago and lasted for 25 days though I cannot recall what it was about specifically. Not only that, but the U.S. Government's Debt ceiling is going to hit in 17 days, which means that unless this gets resolved and they deal with that before those 17 days are up, then the U.S. Government will have to default on its debts since it will have no money. None of the parties want that, so my guess is that this is just going to become a big game of chicken where we'll see which party will give in first.

Here is my problem though, and maybe I'm just being Canadian and like Public Health Care systems overly too much, but what the heck were the Republicans thinking? Every hour that the government is shut down is costing them about 67 million dollars, multiply that by what we already have accumulated around 3,149,000 dollars in lost money. They say that they're(the Republicans) opposed to Obamacare in both Principle and Practise; is that supposed to mean they don't agree with the idea of giving people the ABILITY to have ACCESS to some form of Public Health Care regardless of how much money they make? That its joe schmoe's own fault if he has a respiratory illness which stops him from working, threatens his life, and cannot afford medicine for it? I understand that the Republican main argument that they cannot afford to sustain a public Health Care system right now, but come on, they aren't helping the situation or their argument by costing the government this much money, and still getting a nice fat paycheck (because even though Government is shutdown, the Senate, Congress, and White House are still being paid).

Even members of their own party didn't agree with the idea of shutting the government down, it was only the Tea Party's sudden revelation of this tactic that the majority decided to get behind it, or at least that is my understanding of it. The Tea Party are willing to drag the government and the whole country into financial collapse over a Health Care bill which is already technically law? I don't know, I'd like to hear what you guys think on the subject, but at the moment I'm having trouble understanding why the opposition was so desperate to stop Obama and the Democrats from finalizing the bill that they resorted to this.

I agree that the Republican leaders are being dumb, and that this is obviously the wrong way to go about trying to get their way. However, we should take note that It's the House of Representatives that's Republican ran, and not the Senate. I try to be a republican, or at least conservative, but it just seems that these guys never get anything done. I wish I could just show up to my job, and accomplish nothing all day, every day, and then get paid for the rest of my life.

[J. Kirk]

Too sum it up in my opinion. Its public elected officials are serving themselves and not serving the public that elected them. There is some insane numbers where they have attempted to repeal Obama care and each time it was voted to keep it. As an American I am tired of the pissing competitions between the democrats and the republicans.

[M. Johnson 1st MRB]

I found this image earlier, and found it crazy.

It's linked with to an article, but it just shows how messed things are in America.

[Lafy BAR]

First a couple little things. The republicans control the house of representatives, not the senate. Also, congress is made up of the house and the senate. It's not the senate and congress.

Now, as for the Affordable Care Act (ACA) also referred to as Obamacare, there is plenty not to like about it. Like you I am a Canadian, and support universal healthcare. The ACA is far from that.

There's a lot of confusion among Americans about what the ACA actually is. It is claimed that companies with more than 50 employees have to provide healthcare. That's not actually true. It's also claimed that "the individual mandate" means that everyone has to have healthcare. That is also not true. So there's really nothing universal about it. Large companies and individuals who do not buy healthcare have to pay a tax that I believe is about two grand per uninsured person. So each company and person can decide for themselves between paying a tax and buying healthcare. There is a loophole of sorts regarding part time employees that many democrats are complaining about. It is not as bad as it's made out to be. The 50 employees means 50 full-time equivalent employees, so cutting hours and employing more part time workers doesn't actually get you out of being considered a large business. From my understanding companies do only have to insure their full time employees to avoid the tax though. So if a company turns full time jobs into part time jobs they can save some money, but they will still have to insure or be taxed for their full time employees.

Many people think that the ACA means that the federal government is getting involved in the medical system. This is true in the sense that they are mandating that insurance companies actually provide fair health insurance, but it is not true that the government will have any involvement in medical decisions between individuals and their doctors. The ACA regulates what medical insurance is required to cover and attempts to encourage people to buy insurance with tax breaks for people with low incomes and tax penalties for those who do not buy insurance.

The only other complaint that I've consistently heard just has to do with the fact that Obama and/or the democrats are apparently evil. The polling shows that 3 out of 4 Americans are opposed to Obamacare, but a majority support each of the elements of the law. So public opinion appears to be more based on prejudice and misinformation than the content of the law.

I personally think that if you refuse to buy your own healthcare and pay the tax penalty that should include enrollment in a federal public heath insurance plan. But congress wouldn't pass a law 3 years ago that included a public insurance option. So for now the Americans are stuck with this one.

As for the government shutdown, it's incredibly childish. I personally think that we Canadians have a more reasonable system in that respect as well. If parliament fails to pass a budget then the prime minister and the party in power lose their positions in the government and unless 2 or more other parties form a coalition to take over those positions a new election is held one month later. Effectively politicians can pass a budget or find a new job.

[Armstrong 1st MRB]

That's funny, I could have sworn in the last election that the Democrats controlled the House, and Republicans controlled the Senate, regardless it doesn't really matter to me.

Misinformation is probably one of the best things that American Politicians and Politicians in general in this day and age are good at. They can paint a massacre of innocents into something grand and great under the name of ethnocide, so I shouldn't be too surprised about this. Honestly Lafy, I can find at least a dozen different versions of this story about what Obamacare means, and every speaker will claim they know something the other one doesn't that makes their story true.

It pisses me off when we the people are so misinformed that we have so many different stories about the same thing going around, not all of the entirely false, and not all of them always true. Yet we're supposed to be the ones who put people in charge to the run the country. Its total bullshit.

Rant aside, that is some interesting information. Makes it even more ridiculous as to why the Republicans and Tea Party would go to these measures to stop it seeing as it actually looks like it leans in their favour in terms of policies if what you're saying is true. It certainly doesn't warrant having all of this money being drained from their treasury hourly in any case.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Armstrong 1st MRB

[Viktor]

This is why the US needs a 3 party system, not 2. If the Libertarians (not to be confused with liberals) were at the head of the table, then this would have never happened in the 1st place. But thats just my 2 cents. I am not one to follow politics too closely due to the fact that it just makes me mad that no matter what the debate, I never get EXACTLY what I want. Its either trading one evil for another anymore.

[Lehman 1st MRB]

The biggest piece of misinformation is that it is the tea party's fault, it is the Republicans' fault, etc. This is more horseshit fed to the American people by obama himself in his recent speech. The Democrat controlled senate did not want to conference with the Republican controlled house to find a solution is what this whole thing comes down to. The few Republicans that stand up for what Americans actually want are being blamed because they're trying to get the point across that the government needs to start doing their jobs and listen to the people.

[Lafy BAR]

I haven't read the text of the law, but I have read some of the information provided by the government about how the implementation works. I find American laws are a pain to read. It's sort of like they don't want anyone to be able to understand them. For comparison, the ACA is 906 pages long, the ENTIRE Canadian Criminal Code is 1068 pages.

The stupid thing about the republicans complaining about the ACA is that from what I've heard it's basically the healthcare law that they proposed when the democrats wanted to have universal healthcare. The democrats compromised and put the republican ideas into the law, but because the democrats did it now they hate those ideas.

[Armstrong 1st MRB]

This is why the US needs a 3 party system, not 2. If the Libertarians (not to be confused with liberals) were at the head of the table, then this would have never happened in the 1st place. But thats just my 2 cents. I am not one to follow politics too closely due to the fact that it just makes me mad that no matter what the debate, I never get EXACTLY what I want. Its either trading one evil for another anymore.

I know, and there is no reason it should be like that. Fuck, we've become so estranged from how politics work its not even funny, at least here in North America. The Politicans only follow their ideals as long as it benefits them, they don't listen to the people if they're in any significant position of power, and Corporations have way too much power to influence things. To point where all logic can be thrown out the window and it can be made so that nobody even notices. Thats the trick to politics nowadays it seems, keeping the population focused on one thing rather than another, or to bombard them with so many confusing terms, events, and ideas at once that they're more confused than anything. Funny how George Orwell's work still holds true nearly 70 years later.

[Lafy BAR]

The biggest piece of misinformation is that it is the tea party's fault, it is the Republicans' fault, etc. This is more horseshit fed to the American people by obama himself in his recent speech. The Democrat controlled senate did not want to conference with the Republican controlled house to find a solution is what this whole thing comes down to. The few Republicans that stand up for what Americans actually want are being blamed because they're trying to get the point across that the government needs to start doing their jobs and listen to the people.

You really can't say that it's all the Democrats' fault for not coming to the conference. The house republicans wouldn't come to a conference for the week leading up to the shutdown, and then hours before it was going to happen decided they wanted to have a conference. The republicans need to be blamed just as much for that.

As for whether it's the tea party's doing or not, that's really up for debate. John Boehner is mostly to blame for not allowing a vote on a clean CR, but it's arguable why he didn't let that happen. Perhaps he really wanted to shut down the government, perhaps he was afraid he would lose his speakership if he didn't side with the radicals. I don't think that he believed both the senate and the president would back down on the ACA after both had said they wouldn't.

[Armstrong 1st MRB]

I haven't read the text of the law, but I have read some of the information provided by the government about how the implementation works. I find American laws are a pain to read. It's sort of like they don't want anyone to be able to understand them. For comparison, the ACA is 906 pages long, the ENTIRE Canadian Criminal Code is 1068 pages.

The stupid thing about the republicans complaining about the ACA is that from what I've heard it's basically the healthcare law that they proposed when the democrats wanted to have universal healthcare. The democrats compromised and put the republican ideas into the law, but because the democrats did it now they hate those ideas.

Proves a point I've been holding true ever since Obama became President, and that is that the Republicans don't care what legislature Obama proposes, they'll be against it no matter what simply out of spite. This just makes it even more assinine if its true.

And Lehman, what would the Republicans have wanted to talk about in regards to a Bill they've been arguing over ever since Obama became President, which had basically become law. Moreover, they had no other course of action than this? Seriously, if this hourly bill keeps racking up, they'll have wasted enough money to have started a public health care system without all of this bullshit. I mean I don't know how seriously you guys or your politicans take a breach in political process (which would be that if what you're saying is true), but to me its totally unjustified that your politicans are willing to risk financial collapse (which they've struggled for the past decade to avoid) over a set of health care laws that were almost completely finalized. Feel free to correct me if my information is wrong.

[Zorbanos 1st MRB]

The biggest piece of misinformation is that it is the tea party's fault, it is the Republicans' fault, etc. This is more horseshit fed to the American people by obama himself in his recent speech. The Democrat controlled senate did not want to conference with the Republican controlled house to find a solution is what this whole thing comes down to. The few Republicans that stand up for what Americans actually want are being blamed because they're trying to get the point across that the government needs to start doing their jobs and listen to the people.

The government shutdown is pretty much the Tea parties fault. they are forcing mainstream republicans to become hardliners or risk losing their seats in primary elections. I definitely agree that the Democrat's aren't really working with the Republicans on the matter, but seriously, would you? The Republicans are LITERALLY holding the government hostage over Obamacare. If they want to fight the law, do it, but this whole political strategy of trying to make the Democrats look bad and shutting down the government is malarkey. Personally, i see the budget and the issue over the ACA as two totally different issues, and the Republicans are turning into one. Btw, the Senate sent the bill back to the House, taking out the part about defunding the ACA and delaying the invidual mandate by one year, and added in a temporary measure to fund the govenment for another six week so that they could work out a compromise. But the House wouldn't accept it, i dont think they even let it go to a vote.

And another important factor someone else above mentioned, is so many people are against Obamacare, and have no fucking clue what they are talking about. I have also seen surveys that find people disagreeing with Obamacare, yet when thy break down the portions of the law people support it, without even realizing its in the bill. Frankly, people are uninformed because of the news. Fox spreads lies about Democrats and vice versa. MSNBC doesnt even tell the whole truth about what the ACA is, they just talk about how awesome it is. So you have bad facts competing with no facts, and people take the bad facts as truth.

TL;DR, its mostly the Tea Party and Republicans fault, ill have to disagree with you there. But there is definitely blood on both parties hands, the two party system is failing, and its largely due to an ill-informed, distracted electorate.

[Lafy BAR]

It's funny that Americans think they have a two party system. Somebody let me know where in the Constitution it says it's a two party system.

[Armstrong 1st MRB]

It's funny that Americans think they have a two party system. Somebody let me know where in the Constitution it says it's a two party system.

Regardless of what it says in their Constitution, you cannot deny that the U.S. has become a Two-Party system. There are no other parties with any power besides the Republicans and Democrats, and any intellectual divisions within them are shades of the same colour. At the same time, both of the parties' political stances aren't that much different on a bunch of subjects. Both are right wing, Republicans are just further to the right than Democrats who are more center.

I believe its a great shame that they've (and us in Canada to some extent) villanized socialist ideas to the point where they condemn anything that may remotely beneficial to all members of their society rather than a select demographic.

[Lafy BAR]

I feel like the house should use Discharge Petitions more than they do ever since the Hastert Rule started being followed. If the speaker refuses to allow votes that the majority of the people's representatives support then the representatives should work around him.

[O'Gara 1st MRB]

Aah, Canadians arguing American politics. What your not understanding is our founders set up a government with these checks and balances so that one party can not control everything. The Senate and Congress are made up of politicians who are elected by the people of their states and or congressional districts.

Blame is an easy thing.

You want to blame the tea party? Why? The tea party representatives are duly elected and they were sent to Washington precisely to do what they are doing. They want to end big government programs such as Obama-care and stop the open check system that is bankrupting this country. Every new social program adds to the 16 Trillion in debt. This is not our debt...It is our children's and grandchildren's debt. Future generations of Americans will have 3rd world poverty, if we do not get rid of the trillions in debt. The Tea party got elected by promising to fight against all of this. It is refreshing to see politicians actually do what they promised come hell or high water. I am not a Tea Party supporter but at least they do what they say. Consequently they are telling the GOP leadership that if they cave to the Democrats on these issues they will work at the local level to oust those republicans. I have no issue with these guys, they are doing what they said they would do.

Blame the GOP? The republican party (which is my party) has lost its way and continues to act like Custer at Little Bighorn. The shutdown is not a fight they can win. It will end eventually and they will bear the blame and lose seats as a result of it, unless they end it in a day or two. The American people have a short memory. What they are doing now is asinine because losing seats will only add more Democrats to the congress and Senate and allow them to pass more legislation that will saddle us in more debt. They are so afraid to lose their seats they will blindly allow the Tea party to run the show here which will only damage the GOP. They can not even realize they are being used, being made to take the blame and making it easier for the tea party to get them unseated while getting their own candidates elected to those seats. I wish they would simply end this for the good of the American people and then get together and reorganize their platform and base stick only to that platform. Family values, small government, no taxes, etc.

Blame the Democrats? I do blame the democrats because many of them went on record stating they voted for Obama-care without even reading the bill. They blindly voted for trillions in debt. That one is priceless. The White house, Congress and Senate all should not be exempted from Obama-care. They should all be the first applicants. By God if they were, this legislation would have never passed, they have a level of health insurance that none of us will ever get. How have the American people not rebelled on the fact that they have better coverage than what they are MANDATING to the rest of us? Yet alas, they are only doing what they promised. They have an agenda and because they have the White House and the Senate they have the upper hand.

The bottom line our system is not broken. It was set up to work this way. What we really need is good politicians who will do what they promise and not do whatever they need to do to keep their job. More importantly, politics is about reaching across the isle and compromising on things to get what you need. Anyone that thinks this is about Obama is wrong, the Democrats did the same thing for Bush and the republicans tried to do the same thing for Clinton. Some time during the Clinton years politicians went into their bunkers and never came out. This is what has to change.

JP

[Lafy BAR]

I find it funny that you say the GOP want to both pay off the debt and have no taxes. Those two things are incompatible and exactly why there is so much debt. Both parties are equally responsible for never taxing people and business to pay for what is spent and enough to lower the debt. There's all this posturing between the two parties about higher or lower deficits in the hundreds of billions, but any deficit adds to the debt. So how exactly are they arguing that they're going to fix it? It can only be paid down by printing money, which lowers the value of everyone's savings, or taxing. Actually I can think of a third way. The government could open for-profit businesses. Government grocery stores, government landscaping, government plumbers, etc. Supposedly the government is worse than private enterprise at everything, how about letting them compete with businesses and see if that's true?

As for 'exempting' congress from the ACA, the point is to make people who don't have good health insurance get good health insurance. If your existing health insurance was as good as the plan they have, then you wouldn't have to switch either. If you really think that they have such a sweet deal, why not argue in favour of expanding the medical coverage that congressmen get so it's one of the options on the healthcare marketplaces? Maybe it will be one of the more expensive ones, maybe it wont be.

[A. Cannon 1st MRB]

Gunshots near Capitol lock down Congres

[Mamora BAR]

Sadly it was only a matter of time and its only gonna get worse. Can't say if this incident is related to the shutdown, but I'm sure it will spark other events. Women had a child in the car with her and rammed the white house gates.

[Gardner2]

I think Canada needs to shut down the border to US travellers and start building a fence.......

[A. Cannon 1st MRB]

I think Canada needs to shut down the border to US travellers and start building a fence.......

Please do not come in! Sorry about this.

[O'Gara 1st MRB]

I find it funny that you say the GOP want to both pay off the debt and have no taxes. ( I said no such thing at all, please reread my post.) (What I said is not add to the debt!) Those two things are incompatible and exactly why there is so much debt. Both parties are equally responsible for never taxing people and business to pay for what is spent and enough to lower the debt. There's all this posturing between the two parties about higher or lower deficits in the hundreds of billions, but any deficit adds to the debt. So how exactly are they arguing that they're going to fix it? (they don't have to fix it they are not in the Majority, they could have 100 economic experts behind a foolproof plan and the party in power will never accept they have the right answer and pass it.) It can only be paid down by printing money, which lowers the value of everyone's savings, or taxing. Actually I can think of a third way. The government could open for-profit businesses. Government grocery stores, government landscaping, government plumbers, etc. Supposedly the government is worse than private enterprise at everything, how about letting them compete with businesses and see if that's true? ( How about this option. The government shuts down all non essential spending. Trims the fat on all unproductive spending and unproductive research. Add no new social programs. Adds a deficit reduction tax to each and every American that can not be offset by tax deductions. In 20 years it will be gone.)

As for 'exempting' congress from the ACA, the point is to make people who don't have good health insurance get good health insurance. If your existing health insurance was as good as the plan they have, then you wouldn't have to switch either. If you really think that they have such a sweet deal, why not argue in favour of expanding the medical coverage that congressmen get so it's one of the options on the healthcare marketplaces? Maybe it will be one of the more expensive ones, maybe it wont be. (your missing the point. They are telling everyone they must have coverage but not as good as theirs. I used to pay $287.00 per month for my family of 4's health insurance and that was before the existence of Obama-care. I now pay $600 per month and they will go up to over $1000 next year unless I take a $5,000 deductible. I was responsible and worked and had healthcare. Your argument that this is a plan to help those who did not have health care is pointless. The costs of my health care have quadrupled in order to insure those that went without. That is not fair or American. I surmise that within 2-3 years I will have to opt out of my employer health care (because I will no longer be able to afford it) and have to take the cut rate Obama-care with less coverage. That is precisely why I want the Congress and Senate and White House not to be exempt. If they had to have the same coverage for their families they would have passed a better program or none at all.)

[Mamora BAR]

So turns out the women didn't have a gun and she had a child in the car with her...hmmm

[O'Gara 1st MRB]

Sadly it was only a matter of time and its only gonna get worse. Can't say if this incident is related to the shutdown, but I'm sure it will spark other events. Women had a child in the car with her and rammed the white house gates.

Sadly this was most likely a poor woman that got lost and went the wrong way. She actually was able to drive down the road to the White House because the initial barriers were down ( they sink into the ground when they want vehicles to drive by and are raised up to block vehicles access. Thus someone fucked up by leaving them down which allowed her to drive right on by. When she got down to the formal barriers she tried to turn around and was confronted by a SS agent. When the SS agent tried to stop her she freaked and bolted. The agent was actually rolled off of her hood. From all accounts they had her boxed in with other cars. I understand about terrorism but they still have to try to apprehend. I really do not think they had to shoot her.

JP