Position on the conflict between Ukraine and Russia

[Melnyk 1st MRB]

I myself was born in Ukraine and live with a primary Ukrainian family. I get to hear ulkranians side of the story through news and the Russian propaganda( which is actually kind of funny because how outrageous the claims they make) and am just wondering what are some public opinions of Americans and even Europeans and any one else on this server.

[Samuels 1st MRB]

Personally, my family's background comes from Odessa (which has flipped between Russian control and Ukrainian sovereignty) so I'm pretty drawn on what should be done between the two. Where I go to school (Maryland), we don't really hear much about whats been going on over there unless we look into it on our own.

Its a delicate situation, since Russia is as large as it is and holds a very large military force, which limits what the world is able to do to assist Ukraine. I always support a countries drive for political sovereignty if they have the proper political claims to their land and enough strength to not internally implode after a few years.

But then again, that's just my 2 cents

[Beglar 1st MRB]

There is little doubt that the West (USA, EU, NATO & IMF) made a huge mistake in subverting the Ukraine. In fact, I am shocked by what I have seen so far. Apparently foreign policy professionals" in the West came to the totally absurd conclusion that they could implement subversive methods of the type that are constantly used in previous( republics.) Well, you don't pull a stunt like that on a guy like Vladimir Putin.

It is now quite apparent that he was well prepared for the events in Kiev. Quite simply, he let the situation develop, as planned by the West, knowing perfectly well that a chain reaction inside the Ukraine would follow, as it did. The Russians in Crimea and the eastern provinces rebelled, as anybody who understands the situation in the Ukraine could have easily guessed would happen.

After that Putin applied the indirect approach. His first priority was the Crimea, because of its geographic location!!!. A referendum was held, and of course the vote was for reunification with Russia. The eastern provinces of the Ukraine are Putins second priority. These he can take any time he wants, but he will, unquestionably, continue with the indirect, political approach, as he did in the Crimea, and if that does not work, he will send in the military(worst case scenario).

This colonial adventure of the West in the Ukraine will go down in history as one of the most incredibly stupid foreign policy stunts which anybody in history ever pulled. Instead of weakening Putin and Russia, the West will make him even stronger, as they will present him on a silver platter what they tried to take away from him, namely the Crimea and the eastern provinces, which until 1954 were Russian anyway. What is even worse, any sanctions against Russia could, theoretically, lead to the breakup of the European Union and the collapse of the American dollar, especially if independent analysts are correct in their assessment that Russia has more than 20,000 tonnes of gold at its disposal. The gold factor could in fact be Putins trump card. We shall see as these are these CRASY TIMES WE LIVE IN !!!

also, I have to say that this guy is Clueless what he is saying :

he says ::::"All of us still clearly remember the Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany," he told German-state broadcaster ARD. "We need to avoid [a repeat of] it."

"Nobody has the right to rewrite the results of the Second World War," he also added. "Russia's President Putin is trying to do exactly this."

Clearly he is dumb as a shoe and he never studied History I think.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Beglar 1st MRB

[Samuels 1st MRB]

Hey Beglar where did you get that from, would love to read more about that

[Beglar 1st MRB]

the bottom part with the picture is from

rt.com

kyivpost.com

sputniknews.com

bbcnews

also I go through some other conspiracy web articles )

[Melnyk 1st MRB]

Great responses guys,and Beglar, how long do you think Russia can fight against a the sanctions economically until he pulls out the gold and screws everyone? Also. Do you think that there is any chance Ukraine will be able to stay unified and keep its independence? Plus, in my opinion the west can't do much against Putin just cause of the circumstance everyone is out in. He can take the dinner and not be touched by the west or anyone for that matter sadly.

[Beglar 1st MRB]

I honestly don't think the so called sanctions will do anything to them.

This is big chess games right now and it started long time ago, meanwhile ordinary people are suffering and killed.

Similar things were happening in the beginning of 1900 and we all know what happened then.

[Wirths]

Well what is your opinion about it?

I have some questions:

Do you think that the west supported the maid an movement, like financing it

Do you think that this regime change of an democratically elected leader was legal?

What do you think about the anti Russian changes the maidan government wanted to implement right after they got into power?

Did you hear that the police and protesters have been shoot by the same ppl from the same building?

do you think that it's OK to bomb and shell cities because of the separatist?they did the same that the maidan movement did in Kiev Like occupy government buildings.when gadaffi did bomb his cities because of rebels he was internationally isolated and going down... if the Kiev government does it.. nobody says something.

I do believe Russia supports the Donbass rebels but I also think the west does the same with the new government. And I believe that if Russia would not have secured the Ukraine bases in Crimea there would have been much more dead ppl than the under 10 dead ppl they had. Also this wasnt an invasion as russia always had over 30.000 troops there. It would have seen the same civil war that Donbass is facing. I really think that the 80+ percent in Crimea that have Russian roots did the right thing here. And to tell them to just move to Russia is stupid as their families lived there longer than Ukraine exists in its current form. It's their soil and they should be able to decide their own fate. Just like the Kosovo was able too.

But I have a big fear that some ppl really want a big war and do anything to provoke it. Like right after Minsk 2 new sanctions. I saw videos of police in maidan burning because of molotov cocktails and they did not shoot back. Then Both sides get shoot and everything spirals into this... or I saw a video of Poroschenko after the Minsk 1 saying they were at 20 percent readiness with vehicles and material before the truce and brought it too 100 percent during that truce.and now they want a second truce when 5009 to 8000 soldiers where encircled in debaltseve. I don't think that he is a person that can be trusted.

Ukraine should just grand Donbass an own federal government with its own state laws. That's the only way there will be peace. The seperatists will fight until Donbass has its old oblast borders.

Well... might two cents could be a little confused in order here. I'm writing during break on cell phone.

[Melnyk 1st MRB]

Wirths, i very much enjoyed your great and well thought out response to an old topic. Glad you show interest and concern. Now to answer your initial questions.

No, most of the support was from the homeland, and the west only started supporting once the people fixed their own personal government issues, and the war with russia started.

I do know that Russia, supported the old government with the intention to cause disruption, and the battles/massacres of civilians in the maidan incident. It is proven that many of the berkut riot police, especially the crack shot snipers, were russians, and sent and provided by the russian government. Russia didn't fund the revolutionary side in the maidan incident, but the crippling government for it to happen and to leave Ukraine in shambles for them to steamroll in.

I am not sure, for i am not well acquainted with legal action. I assume you mean the overthrow of the old president after the maidan incident and the election of a new one? Yes i do believe it was legal. The social contract references how the people should, and can rebel versus their current government if they are not happy with it. To tell the truth, we shouldn't be looking at the illegal actions of the people, but the extremely illegal robberies of government funds and property by the extremely corrupt government, that the country is slowly getting rid of.

I also think that the anti russian changes are well fought for and founded. The people know russia is behind many of its problems, somehow they knew the possibility of hostile action by russia. Russia was already hostile and provocative due to ukraine not siding with it right away and instead debating to join the european union. The government still supports joining the EU, and therefore have a very well founded statement versus russia.

I don't really understand the last question. DO you mean that there were shots fired from a third party? If so yes i have heard of it but have forgotten any news/evidence of this. Don't remember who the third party was, more likely a stronger russian military squad/group to observe and monitor that everything goes well, could be european troops, which is highly unlikely, and the most improbable, american troops. Realistically i don't know. If you could reiterate this question i would gladly give an opinion.

The ukranian government isn't bombing and shelling cities vs separatists. Never heard that before this. Ukraine realistically doesn't have the resources to do these missions, and instead hunts down russian soldiers/outposts, you know, the ones that are bombing civilians? I heard this story that happened in Ukraine recently. Ukranian soldiers lit up some tires and other stuff to create some fires far off in the woods. This was a distraction to simulate either a city population or military objectives. Soon after, russian mortar/artillery start bombing the smoke trails. This gave the Ukrainians a chance to find and destroy the artillery. Just to think that the russians would bomb smoke thinking it is something important, not caring for those who die in result.

Russia may have these troops stationed, but when they start crossing the border its an invasion. How do you think that more people would die if crimea wasn't taken initially internally then securing it by force? The only reason there weren't many casualties is due to the Ukrainian navy not fighting, either being too smart to die for nothing, or many pro Russians deserting. Also, crimea is Ukraine's soil. Not the people there, they are a part of Ukraine. Most of the people there are Ukrainian tatars and Ukrainians. Not many pro Russians from what i heard. No tatars or Ukrainians voted for annexation, which means that the vote might of been rigged, like previously in Ukraine's history with corruption. Plus, many Ukrainians have Russian roots due to the soviet union. No soviet countries want to go back and join Russia, so to tell the truth, i find it highly unlikely that majority of pro Ukrainians fell for the terrible propaganda in the crimea annexation, but that already happened so whatever.

I understand that you are saying that there are videos of the riot police burning and such during maidan? Well, have you seen videos of innocent and non armed civilians being gunned down and sniped? The videos of neo nazi police stripping and harassing the civilians? Theres a documentary coming out about the heroes of the maidan, and how the riot police showed no mercy. You know, Russia sent their most ruthless for the police. Notice how the military did not come in, thats because they were underfunded by the government so Russia could come in without force, and because the military supported the people, but did not want to get involved.

The problem with giving up don bass to Russia is that he won't stop. He will keep on going till he gets ground access to Ukraine, and possibly majority of Ukraine swell. The people will give their lives to protect their homeland, be it a losing battle, by this point, the rage for the Russians is to much to just give up. There was a "cease fire" by Russia but that only means large scale battles won't happen, the "separatists" that are supported and funded by Russia's military will keep on fighting. The only way to end this is for Putin to fully back off, knowing that he will lose too much for nothing.

Thats my three cents, if you have any concerns and or further discussion i will be happy to continue.

[Wirths]

Bombing and shelling:

Use of White Phosphor

Artillery Shelling

Maidan Snipers

Berkut being attacked

About current Kiev...

Need to go to work now, i will search for more later ^^

[Scinta]

Both are in the wrong, Putin is glad an old state is in chaos and like Chechnya he will not stop until the Soviet Bloc is reestablished again just without US foreign aid to keep it alive LET THEM TRY NOW NATO's missile defense system makes Russia useless and they know it. I am just glad there is a truce because this looks like the next Syria and I will personally not stand by and watch it happen again. Russia and the US are just having combat training and waiting for the last superpower war to start. God bless Ukraine and it's people I am atheist but I am a traditional thinker and I know most people do not want to see anymore bloodshed why cant people in power just simply stop dictating their own people...when will the chaos end? when will any of us stop seeing pictures of Syrian children murdered by the hundred and seeing videos of kids in schools so used to rocket attacks they barely react to go under their desks? WHEN WILL THE UN AGREE ON FUCKING SOMETHING? Who knows these things. Just be thankful we have the privilege of having a stable country and keep buggering on for humanity because winter is coming count on it. If Russia takes the conflict any further then NATO will act and I will find a way to be a part of that albeit French Foreign Legion or the USMC but the Ukraine government must stop mistreating it's own people it's not worth starting a world war over.

[Melnyk 1st MRB]

Yeah the corrupt president was kicked out, some corruption still exist but there is no cease fire/truce. People are still fighting in eastern Ukraine, it's just not full blown like before :/